The Table Video

In this CCT Conversation, psychologists Eric Johnson and Siang-Yang Tan discuss the distinctives of Christian psychology.

Transcript:

Well hello, Siang Yang. It’s so good to be able to talk with you today. I look forward to dialoguing.

Yeah, thanks Eric. It’s good to be here with you.

Let me begin by asking, how would you define Christian psychology?

Well, as you know, the term Christian psychology has come into the forefront quite a lot in the so called integration literature, trying to integrate Christian faith with psychology or with counseling.

And, you have been a huge, significant part of this whole movement and some of the people who are watching may not know, but you’re the director of the Society for Christian Psychology, which is a division, a part of the AACC, the American Association of Christian Counselors. That’s more in the more formal, kind of context. But more generally, Christian psychology is a term that sometimes people use, but with different meanings.

I’ve always considered myself someone who’s been involved in and courts Christian psychology, which I define as a psychology that’s based primarily and fundamentally on scripture, God’s word. The Bible has a lot to say about many things, including psychology.

So, I think that Christian psychology must begin with the word of God, with inspired scriptures, which I hold very highly. Of course, we have to have proper exegesis, humanistic interpretation, helping guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the word. We need the traditions that are good over 2000 years of church history, even before that, in the history of God’s people, the Jews. So, all those things I am just assuming that we will also use.

So, Historical Theology, for example, Biblical Theology, Systematic Theology, the things that you’ve been writing about. And, particularly the patristics period of church history and some of the early wisdom of the early church fathers and mothers, abbas and ammas, you know? A lot of deep spirituality, and deep theology, and psychology, way before Sigmund Freud. So, we must not think that Sigmund Freud discovered or invented psychotherapy. The cure or the care of souls has been existing since God created Adam and Eve, you know?

God takes care of our lives and our souls, so to speak. So, for me Christian psychology is a distinctive approach to psychology, which is the study of human behavior, from a biblical perspective, as well as a theological perspective, that goes back into the history of our traditions and our faith in the church.

You have described that in very similar way so I’ve always taken those things seriously. But at the same time, as you also have tried to emphasize, Eric, Christian psychology, to be substantial enough and meaningful, must also take seriously, the field of psychology itself, and call it secular, whatever you wanna call it, scientific psychology. There’s a lot of good research being done, a lot of good theorizing that’s being done.

We must always, of course, filter all of these findings and theories through the grid of scripture, God’s word. In terms of integration, I’ve always said, as Larry Kravitz also said, you integrate and you incorporate from the so-called secular literatures in psychology, what is consistent in scripture and what is anti-biblical, we need to not integrate.

So, integration is not integrating all the time. Integration also means not to integrate at times, so God’s truth will guide us. All truth is God’s truth, but God’s special revelation in scripture is special and we need to spend more time in the word, in scripture, and in historical and biblical theology to understand human nature and human function and dysfunction, how to treat and help in a more comprehensive way from God’s perspective.

So, Christian psychology should also take seriously the consideration scientific psychology, so-called secular psychology, but with this caveat of the greater scripture guiding us ultimately.

That’s really helpful and you know, one of the reasons why I think you’re such a good poster boy for Christian psychology is because you have a kind of breadth when you think about these issues that is really the heart of the society.

We’re not interested in coming up with a new school to separate ourselves from everybody else. On the contrary, there are plenty of people, like yourself, who have used the integration label and that’s what we wanna do, you know?

And, then there are also biblical counselors who are doing good work and we see we’re on the same team in that sense. The reason why I think you’re such a good example of that is because of, I think for years you have pointed to biblical counselors and where you can agree with them or you like what they’re doing, you make that very clear, as well as calling yourself an integration, you’re quite comfortable with the Christian psychology label. So, it’s interesting to me that you’re willing to take all of these labels. Not many people do that.

Yes, yes. I think that’s important of you, because if we set up barriers that unnecessary and then we start making judgments that are not helpful, then we begin to split up the camps and then it can be divisive. I don’t think that’s good for the kingdom and for the glory of God.

On the other hand, of course, we have to be honest enough to agree to disagree where we have sincere and valid disagreements with one another. But the dialoguing, the mutual appreciation of one another, the mutual enriching of one another, for example, I’ve often said to my students at Fuller Seminary, APA society programs in clinical psychology, that for example, Jay Adams in Nouthetic counseling.

Some people say, oh no, wait! I say, wait a minute, have you read his books? And, I tell them, I read the biblical counselors, especially the more conservative ones because they force me to go back to the word. Even if you don’t always agree with the exegesis, okay?

But they are as word-centered as can be and that’s not a bad thing, because there’s a tendency for those of us are professional psychologists, like myself, in the field, to let the field and the discipline of psychology, the secular field of psychology, dictate how we think and how we function. The guild, you know, that’s the American Psychological Association, it’s all this other associations.

And, while we appreciate our connections with them and so on, we have to again, go back to the grid, the ultimate truth form in scripture. So, that the biblical counselor’s called to be biblically grounded and to be biblically consistent, into that scripture, fundamentally guide us in all that we do in counseling.

I think it’s a very good and accurate assumption and truth that I subscribe to. So, I take the scriptures as seriously as my colleagues in biblical counseling do. I mean, I call myself a biblically-oriented counselor and a Christian psychologist in that sense. And, integration is because the word integration has been in the field for so long.

I don’t just wanna throw it out because then you’ll not be able to connect with the majority of Christians who are in the field who want to do integration. But now we exegy, and interpret and explain integration, in a more consistent and deeply biblical way, in my opinion, so therefore a more Christian psychology way. Then there’s another whole era that’s now come up in the last few years called transformational psychology, which emphasizes a spiritual formation and spirituality in the work of the Holy Spirit, which I’ve been writing about, too.

That’s right!

So, all of those things.

You’re involved in all

Yeah, right!

of these approaches, which is very special. Some on the most conservative side of biblical counseling would be skeptical of you. What would you say to them?

Those who are more conservative usually don’t have as much problems with my approach because I have tried to be, by the grace of God, as biblical as possible. They see my emphasis on scripture.

They see my citing of scripture in proper context and my acknowledging the contributions of different authors in the field, you know? Including Jay Adams, whose earlier writings included the statement that in every counseling situation that there’s three people: the counselor, the counselee and the Holy Spirit.

And, he doesn’t talk very much more about that. He moves on and talks about other things, but he believes in that. So do I! I think every Christian counselor should believe that and know that. The presence on the Spirit’s very important. It’s not just about being charismatic or Pentecostal. It’s about being biblical, Christian.

The Holy Spirit’s work in our lives and our ministries, not just counseling, any ministry, preaching, teaching, evangelism, missions, whatever, social concerns. His anointing, His presence, His power is important, so that we don’t fall into the trap of, kind of, a self-effort, self-improvement kind of a Christianity. I mean, the very essence of Christianity is that we have come to the end of ourselves.

We know we cannot save ourselves, therefore we come to the Savior Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ. And, not only does He save us, He sanctifies us and one day He will give us glorified bodies. You see? Salvation, justification, conversion, sanctification, growth to become more like Jesus, and final glorification, where our bodies are glorified like Jesus. It’s all the work of the Spirit by faith, by grace alone.

Now, there’s some people say, well so, there’s no wrong on your part? No, there is wrong on our part. Our role is to surrender, is to surrender to Jesus in a holy and healthy brokenness. So, the whole emphasis on brokenness, on humility, on dependence on God, we have to write a lot more about that, and the role of suffering, sanctified suffering.

And, I’ve written quite a bit about this about this in my book, “Full Service”, a book on servanthood, that Baker publish in 2006. I have a chapter there on servanthood and humility and servanthood and suffering. Then today, in the secular field, so to speak, there’s a lot of what now, on resilience, on post-traumatic growth, on benefit-finding, on stress-related growth, on meaning-making. As Christian psychologists, we have tremendous amounts to contribute to that literature because the Bible is full of teaching about that.

But now the psychologists in the secular field are saying that the majority of people who go through trauma and extreme suffering, do not develop PTSD. Don Meichenbaum has pointed out repeatedly, recently, that only up to about 30% of those in wars and catastrophes, develop PTSD. Only up to 30%, or adjustment disorders and other things, but especially PTSD.

Seventy percent or more, within a year or two, they bounce back. They’re resilient. They actually grow to be stronger, better people. So, the Bible has been teaching for so long already that we grow through our sufferings, our trials.

But I just finished writing an article on resilience and post-traumatic growth, in general psychology and Christianity, but I give a biblical critique, even of the resilience and post-traumatic growth literature in the sense that, from the Christian point of view, all the suffering can lead to growth.

Post-traumatic growth, resilience, making a better person, but the very deeper essence of suffering for the Christian is more than just benefit-finding. ‘Cause some so self-center, oh, I suffer so that I can grow. I can be better or I can benefit from this.

I think that ultimately, suffering for the Christian of the right kind, redemptive suffering, sanctified suffering, is about Philippians 3:10, where Paul the Apostle says, “That I might know the fellowship of His sufferings. That I might join Jesus in my union and communion with Him, my oneness with Him. I suffer in Christ, and with Him, and He with me.”

And, that kind of suffering has deeper, more mysterious, if not mystical aspects that we don’t fully comprehend, that advance the kingdom of God. One day in heaven we’ll understand that. So, it’s not so much as for my benefit, it’s for the glory of God. John Piper has written about this, sanctification in the suffering of God, that ultimately is all about the glory of God, and His goodness and His fullness being manifest.

And, of course, Jesus suffering with us and for us first, and then we join Him in discipleship, in suffering with Him and for Him. Regardless of, you know, with no regard for whether I benefit from it or not, but of course ultimately I will, in heaven to come, but not always on Earth. So, we have to be a bit careful about this. Oh good, I’ll suffer, if it benefits me. Right?

It can become another insidious, kind of way, of our own selfishness. It’s like self-care. Just wrote another article on self-care and beyond. Self-care is important, but you have to go through self-care and beyond, because God will care for us, and one another will care for one another. Self-care, if not careful, can be selfish-care. It is not selfish-care.

Appropriate self-care is biblical, it’s important. Jesus took time to rest and so on. But there are seasons in our life, like Sally Canning, from Wheaton College wrote an article a couple of years ago, Why I Hesitate Teaching Self-Care, because you know, self-care can be too much into the self, you see. The self-care has to be in the context of trusting God and also in terms of stewardship, as she said, in terms of what I call sanctified suffering. There are times in our lives when God will stretch us.

There are times in our lives when God will send what Gary Thomas has called in his book, “Authentic Faith”, authentic disciplines of circumstantial spiritual disciplines, like mourning, and waiting, and loss, and suffering, that God allows, or sends into your life, without your choice, is distinct from the traditional, classical spiritual disciplines where you choose to pray, you choose to read the Bible, you choose to be in solitude and silence. So, you don’t choose when a spouse dies. You don’t choose when an accident happens, but God uses all of those things to mold us and to make us more like Jesus.

And, it is important for us to understand that during those times. We may be knocked out of balance. So, not a self-care cannot just be conceptualized by Christians as balance in your life, you know. A lot of people say, you have to keep your balance, you have to be balanced. Sometimes balance is not the name of the game. I’m sorry, game, is not the characteristic of the Christian life. J.I. Packer just wrote a book called, “Weakness is the Way”. Weakness, we are to be weak, II Corinthians 12. God’s strength and power is only made perfect in our weakness, never in our strength.

So, in our sufferings, we’re willing to be weak. That’s a good place to be. We need to stay there in dependence on God, in humility, in humble, healthy, I call it, holy brokenness. Then God can work powerfully. Dallas Willard was once asked, the late Dallas Willard, you know, where can God be found? Where is God’s address? Big conference there, I was speaking with him and others and he said, paused for a moment in his deep philosophical wisdom and theological wisdom, he said, “God can always be found at the end of your rope dot com. But don’t use that email address, it doesn’t work.” But at the end of your rope. Only when we come to the end of ourselves.

The Beatitudes, blessed are the poor in spirit, for this is the kingdom of God. So, all these things are important. Christian psychology from scriptural wisdom, as well as the wisdom of historical and biblical theology, and systematic theology, will help us to have a much deeper and more substantial meaning that’s eternal in all of these topic areas.

Sometimes Christianity, I think, has maybe exaggerated what you’re focusing on. Maybe in the Middle Ages there was some tendency to glorify suffering, but what you’re bringing out is, I think, real distinctive of the Christian tradition.

We don’t glorify suffering, but we honor it as a part of this difficult world down here, in which God can work and bring good out of evil. It’s a different perspective than you have, I think, if you don’t have a God who’s able to raise people from the dead.

Right. But I’m glad you brought that up, Eric, because Dallas Willard also use to say, “Never glorify suffering.” Suffering is temporary, it’s tentative, it’s essential in a fallen world from time to time, but ultimately it’s not about suffering, but in this world, in sharing with Christ in the fellowship of sufferings. I’m just saying that when we do suffer, there’s a deeper, spiritual, almost mystical union with Christ aspect, that the psycho psychologists would not talk about easy.

People appreciate it.

It’s just about benefit-finding, about how you grow and all that. But it’s not just about that. It can be, again, self-centered if you think about it that way. It’s about the kingdom of God. It’s about the glory of God. Of course, in the end you are blessed, but that’s secondary, see? But also to remember that finally, it is not about suffering because suffering will end one day for the Christian. So, as C.S. Lewis once wrote, right? “Joy is the Serious Business of Heaven”.

And, I just preached, too a series of messages from the Book of Revelation in my church. Now, I’m into the last couple of chapters, wonderful, what heaven to come! The new heaven, the new Earth, the new Jerusalem, and the tremendous joy that is before us and the glory, the gloriousness of it all. We ain’t seen nothing yet! We cannot even conceptualize!

And, John struggles with the words because it’s symbolic and it’s imagery based, and so on. It’s meant to kind of shock us out of our stupor and our stupidity, so to speak, to see things that we would otherwise not see. Things are not as they seem. They’re deeper, and better, and more eternal. So know, one day in heaven, no more pain, no more suffering, no more tears. So, yes.

Eric: That’s pretty radical.

Yeah, we have to keep in mind suffering is temporary.

That’s great! It occurs to me, whenever we talk, just how diverse you are. You are Mr. Diversity in some ways because another way in which that plays out is the different hats that you have been called to wear in your life.

You are a professor at Fuller, you’re also pastor of a local church, you’re an author. You do spiritual direction. Am I leaving something out? You know, you are involved in a lot of different aspects of ministry and of service for others. But it also must create some tensions, in terms of your professional identity as a therapist, pastoral role and all that. How do you sort that out in your life?

I think one of the reasons why we tend to think of, I’m not negating or denying that there can be some tensions, potential or real, both, you know. We need to face them. However, let me make a quick comment, first, kind of a nuancing comment.

I think one of the reasons why it is difficult for many people to integrate this into areas of their lives, of ministry or their different professional selves, so to speak, is because in this modern or post-modern age, we tend to categorize and dichotomize, or trichotomize, all kinds of things. This psychologist. This a pastor. This is a scholar. But we go back again, to the traditions, to historical, not just historical theology, but historical Christianity. The history of the church! Right?

The early church fathers. What were they? Psychologist? Pastor? What were they? Psychology was not called psychology yet. Right? But look at early church fathers and even mothers. Many of them were doctors of the church, they were theologians, they were pastors, they were preachers, they were physicians of the soul. Psychologists! They were all, and they never called themselves, they didn’t demarket all this stuff, didn’t split up in other words, all these things. They were integrated a whole, you see.

Today, of course, we have these professions. And, the mastering of this, more and more subdivisions, professions and then other professions, you know? We have just split ourselves up so much. I think that’s not good actually for the human being. It’s good in some sense, for specialization. It’s not good for integration of the whole person, in a difference sense of them integration, not amusing. Wholeness, wholistic persons.

So, for me, I find that because the pastoral role includes a lot of teaching and preaching, so that overlaps with my role as a professor, I teach and speak in conferences and so on, so it’s very similar. And, I have gifts in those areas by the grace of God. A good pastor also does a lot of pastoral care and counseling. The care of souls, it’s very close to counseling. Now, of course, from a professional point of view, one has to be careful.

I do not see my parishioners as patients. They do not pay me and if they want intensive therapy I usually refer them out, but I will visit with them. I will provide pastoral care and counseling. The so-called dual role issue, in many ethical codes, and we also need a clear definition of that, and a clarification.

The dual role thing in multiple roles caution in ethical codes, that’s a caution. It’s not a prescription against a prescription, okay? In other words, psychologists or professional counselors do not engage in dual roles or multiple roles with their clients, if they impair their professional judgment or they’re potentially harmful to their client.

The ethical code implies that there are exceptions, in other words there are times when you will be in a dual role or multiple role, but as long as you make sure it doesn’t impair your clinical judgment, objective judgment, and it doesn’t contribute to the potential damage or harm to the client.

So, for example, someone in a rural area, small little town in the United States, with 200 people, you’re the only psychologist in town. You know everyone in the town because there’s only 200 people. You know the milkman, the postman, the post person, the milk person, or you know. They’re your clients and you go to the same church, you sing the same choir, so I cannot see you because, you know, you have all this different roles.

There’s no other psychologist in town. There’s nobody else they can see. The military sometimes, similar things happen. A cross-cultural context in some smaller cities, you know, small Asian community for example, 10, or 12, or 15 people. And, you happen to be Asian, the only Asian marriage and family therapist and you can speak the language. You go to the same church. You sing the same choir and so on.

But they need help. What are you gonna do? So, there are exceptions, okay? Of course, in lay counseling we do not apply the dual role. Lay counsels help friends. [laughing] That’s the nature of peer counseling, lay counseling, friendship counseling. That’s not professional counseling. So, that’s where the care of souls is a bigger concept which I like, in the church. You know, I’ve written a lot in the field of lay counseling. Helping lay people with some basic guidance and training.

Sometimes just some supervision so they don’t do harm, you know, to help others, for free. It’s not psychotherapy. It’s not. Then you can help friends. You still have to be careful. Very close friends might impair your objectivity, you know, but even, let’s put it very bluntly, if we are sometimes, in our own lives, who’s the one that helps us the most? If you have a good marriage probably our best friend is our spouse. You’re really close, so she cannot help me. She cannot do any counseling because we’re really, really close.

Yeah, that does exception.

And, from the Asian perspective, I tell you a number of times, I have people in my church ask me, “Dr. Tan, I wanna see you for therapy. I’ll pay you.” Say, I can’t, I’m your senior pastor. What do you mean? I trust you, I respect you, I know you! I’m sorry, because of the dual role thing.

There I do draw a limit because I don’t wanna mix the roles too much, or at all. And, they get a bit offended until I explain to them. You know what they think? Stupid code of ethics. Because for see, for the Asian mentality, you consult someone that you know and you trust. You do not consult a stranger. American psychology, see strangers, fight dual role, just see people you don’t know. You know? So, there are cross-cultural perspectives to all this too that we must keep in mind.

That’s good.

We must interpret that code carefully. Arnold Lazarus, in case you are wondering, who is this? Arnold Lazarus, the founder of Multimodal Therapy, wrote a scathing critique of the dual role prescription because of people misunderstanding the ethical code. He sometimes goes and plays tennis with his patients, if it will help them.

And, sometimes will attend a wedding of a client and he was really critiqued by, especially the Freud and psychoanalytic camp. But he says, look, you do what is therapeutic most helpful. You use your judgment, of course, you know? But this draconian misapplication of the dual role thing is an ethical guideline. It’s not a prescription. It’s not a prescription against. It’s a caution.

Anyways, I wanted

that’s great!

to explain that out.

Thank you! Well, you know, you are so well informed as a pastor, as a something of a theologian, about the Christian faith, so you have a deep appreciation for it’s value in counseling, in psychotherapy. Tell us what, for you, seems to be some of the most therapeutic aspects of the Christian faith?

I think, again, as you look at the field of psychology, even so-called psycho psychology, the positive psychology movement for example, that is focusing on the strengths of human beings, virtues, including the importance of gratitude and forgiveness, and altruism. And that, as I alluded to, this last 10 years or so, much more of an emphasis on post-traumatic growth, not just Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD, and benefit-finding, stress-related growth, or resilience.

So, looking at more of the positive aspects of human nature. But we have to be careful, we have to critique. We also have to have a critique of positive psychology. Unfortunately, positive psychology always gives a more balanced view to human beings, can be too positive because human beings are fallen. Sin is marred. The image of God is missed terribly. Human beings are capable of much evil and sin, so we must never negate that part. That’s why we need Christ still, you see? But there are also the positive aspects that reflect the image of God, no matter how marred and scarred, still in every human being. We need to appreciate.

So, my point simply is that I believe that first of all, the Christian faith and the scriptures of the Bible, the word of God, has the best and most complete, most comprehensive answer to many of these tension points. By the way, I did not fully answer your previous question. Are there some tensions? Yes, in my life as a pastor and a psychologist, but not as much as people think because of the integrated view that I have of my functioning. But I’m careful of certain professional boundaries, okay? So, back to this question.

I think the Bible gives us most comprehensive view. It doesn’t answer every question, but it answers a lot of our questions about human nature, human function, human dysfunction. So, I think that in these areas, like suffering and so on, the existential issues, the existential therapists deal with this, fear of death, meaning of life and so on. I think the Bible has deeper answers.

If the person is willing to explore them, even if not Christian, if they give you informed consent for example, then it’s ethical to go into a discourse of some of these kinds of existential, slash spiritual issues, incorporating even biblical truth. You see? If the client invites you, or says yes, I am interested.

Now, of course, if your clients are Christians and they give you, they serve their informed consent, then biblical discourse, and teaching from scripture, and discussions, and prayer together, including inner-healing prayer for painful memories, can be very, very helpful for the client. If the client wants it, and especially if the client’s a Christian.

Not all Christians want this by the way, so you always have to ask for informed consent. In fact, some recent surveys have shown that even if people are Christians, it depends on their level of commitment, whether they’re conservative or not. The more liberal and the less committed Christians do not want to use prayer in therapy, even though they are Christians. We must not then impose it on them, you know?

But for those who tend to have a deeper commitment, or maybe more conservative and prayer’s important to them, it can be a very therapeutic intervention. So, there are certain spiritual resources we can use. There is spiritual teaching from scripture we can use. And, a bigger air of meaning-making and growth, you know, through the trials of life.

So, I think the scriptures can contribute in many, many ways and the Christian faith can contribute many ways. And, the one other thing that may not be as obvious, the Christian faith is never a do-it-alone faith. It’s never an island unto itself. The Christian faith emphasizes community, the church, you see.

And so, community is very important in the healing of persons and so therapist for example, will never just be highly individualistic, if you are a Christian therapist. We have to almost fight the American tendency to gross individualism, you see? So that, for example, referrals to church groups, support groups, the community, small groups. They can be very helpful in healing. Or, do group therapy when it’s appropriate.

So, all those things. And then readings, spiritual readings, the classics, spiritual classics of war, a lot of wisdom from the early church fathers and mothers. We prescribe self-help books to our clients oftentimes. I prescribe also spiritual reading because it goes deeper.

That reminds me, I just picked up AW Tozer’s book, “The Knowledge of the Holy” for 99 cents, on Amazon.

That’s a great deal!

It was a great deal! That’s a very good book for helping people to ground their soul in a great God.

And, very simply written. Four or five pages per chapter. I’ve read the book many times. And, that’s like the early version of J.I. Packer’s “Knowing God”.

Eric: Yeah, that’s right! Yeah, that’s great!

Tozer’s one of my favorite authors.

That’s great! Well, couple of years ago you wrote a textbook that’s, in my opinion, it’s the most important book you’ve written.

Siang: Thank you!

But there are lots of textbooks out there on theories of counseling. Why did you write yours?

Yeah, my book is called “Counseling and Psychotherapy: A Christian Perspective”, Baker Academic Publishing, 2011. I took five years to write that book because I felt that there was a need for a more updated version of a overview of the 10 major schools of counseling in a secular field.

So, my book covers all the 10 major ones. There are a couple of newer ones that have been developed, but they are still new. Even the second edition not include them. But the 10 major ones, so where there’s psychoanalytic, jungian, lyrian, gestalt, reality therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, counter behavior therapy, behavior therapy, marital and family therapy, person-centered therapy, some of these, existential therapy. I describe the theories in depth with the techniques and I also have a verbatim transcript at the end of each of these chapters.

And, also a unique contribution of this book, I wrote, it took me five years to write, the latest research, because there are many secular books in the field that cover some of these things, but not a Christian perspective. Jones and Butman’s book, of course, “Modern Psychotherapy”, is the best known, 1991. It just came out with a second edition, too. And, they have covered some of this.

But the research is not always the most update and it’s not the most clinical. So, I tried to give, and then the unique part of my book, I guess would be the last few chapters, where I write about a Christ-centered, Bible-based, spirit-filled approach to Christian counseling. A lot of my work for last 30 years, so it talk about using scripture in counseling, inner-healing prayer, prayer, some of these things, in an appropriate with informed consent. Talk about implicit integration, which is quiet, and explicit integration, which is more explicit and direct, with the informed consent of the client.

You can talk about Christ, and the Bible, and pray, and do other things that’s more explicit. But it all depends on the client and you have to follow the proper guidelines of ethical practice. But one can do that kind of integration in the counseling room, okay?

So, that’s why I wrote the book. I think that it can make a very unique contribution to helping people think Christianly about this whole field. And, the two years it’s been out, it’s done very well. People are using it as a major textbook.

Oh, wonderful!

So, I’m thankful!

I’ve enjoyed it and used it and will continue to do so. Well, thanks so much for sharing this time with us. God bless you!

Yeah, bless you, too! Thank you! [engaging music]